From: mzorn
Date: 08-26-2006, 01:55 PM (1 of 15)
Does it matter whether you buy a new Janome through an independant dealer or a department store... is quality and a good dependable machine the same? I had a dealer tell me the quality of the "store" model is not as good of a machine as the models sold through an independant dealer. They also told me dealers were not happy when Janome began selling to stores. I was also told that Janome will not support these machines that are sold through a store instead of an independant dealer. I did contact Janome on this 2nd issue and they said they will support the machines bought at a store and the machines bought from a dealer. They just aren't on the Janome website because they are on the stores website that is selling them. Any thoughts... Thank you ! Melinda |
User: mzorn
Member since: 04-14-2002 Total posts: 22 |
From: wghmch
Date: 08-26-2006, 02:50 PM (2 of 15)
The thing that is not commonly understood is that in the SM industry, there is NO compensation to the dealer from the manufacturer or distributor for working on a machine, whether he/she sold it or not. The profit that they make on the original sale is all that they can ever hope to receive to cover all the "free services" that they offer. A local dealer buys machines in a quantity that they are able to sell in their own store, while a dept store buys in the quantity that they can sell nationwide. Unfortunately for the dealer, this frequently means that they are paying nearly as much for the machine as the dept store is selling it for. Also, the dealer has all of his fixed costs, including training the people that help you, (dept store seldom bothers with this) sending service people to training seminars and stocking parts, (dept store only has a limited # of people doing this at a central location) and training people to teach their customers how to use the products. (dept store does not offer this either) Obviously, the dealer's way of doing business is a lot more expensive, and is somewhat of a throwback to the days when people expected to get what they pay for. We have entered an age where there are two conflicting ways of doing business, and the "modern way" is that "price is the only thing that matters" and "if it doesn't work, stick someone else with it or throw it away" and buy a new one. There are, unfortunately, many dealers who expect to reap the profits of the old way, and offer the non-existant services of the new way. Obviously, these do not deserve your business or your loyalty. However, there are still some wonderful dealers out there who are just as devoted as was the norm 50-75 years ago, and when they are gone, there will be no local service, no place to get a demonstration, no place to find out that there is a particular model that you are wise to avoid, and no place to find out that the problem which you thought was serious was merely a matter of lever A needing to be moved to position B. Some of us are going to miss those dealers. Bill Holman |
User: wghmch
Member since: 03-04-2003 Total posts: 249 |
From: mzorn
Date: 08-26-2006, 05:13 PM (3 of 15)
So, basically it is the same machine, same parts, same quality just different price and support after purchase. That means the independent dealer misrepresented her products to try and sway me from the less expensive, but comparable Janome from a department store. I had already test drove the machine at the dealer and liked the feel of the Janome. I might have considered putting it in layaway. If she had explained it like you did I might be more likely to return and by from her. Now that I see it as her trying to mislead me into thinking her machines are better because they cost more. I'm probably now going to buy from the department store and when I need help find a dealer in a nearby town that hasn't misrepresented the information. I appreciate honesty and I appreciate you explaining this which does make sense. I do love the local mom and pop shops that are still trying to hang on after the take over of these huge uncaring, dishonest, non existent customer service oriented conglomerates. To see chains like Wal-mart destroying any chance the average joe has of starting any kind of retail business is very sad. I do try and support independent merchants. Thank you so much for your help on this matter. I realize it does take a lot of time and money to offer the "free friendly services" that we are very quickly loosing in this modern world. I also want honesty from these people too. Thank you, Melinda |
User: mzorn
Member since: 04-14-2002 Total posts: 22 |
From: wghmch
Date: 08-26-2006, 05:46 PM (4 of 15)
"So, basically it is the same machine, same parts, same quality just different price and support after purchase. That means the independent dealer misrepresented her products to try and sway me from the less expensive, but comparable Janome from a department store. I had already test drove the machine at the dealer and liked the feel of the Janome. I might have considered putting it in layaway." Mostly, yes, but far from a sure thing. Sears has been famous over the years for requiring minor modifications in their models, which although they really don't deminish the quality, force the owner to come back to them for service/parts. I'll give you three examples from over many years that are obvious. (Naturally, there are many more that are less so.) #1 Back in the days when everybody was using flat bed machines from Japan, almost all of the heads interchanged to any generic cabinet. Sears had theirs made with a different size squared off base and different hinge placement, so you couldn't interchange them. #2 In many of those older machines, the motors were also generic, and simple to replace by any shop. Sears realized that people were going to local shops to get replacements, so they had the mounting holes for the screws on their motors staggared instead of straight across, so you had to get the motor from them...if they still offered it for your model. #3 When Sears was getting most of their machines from Maruzen, (now known as Jaguar) (most Sears machines now are Janomes) they had a series that was timed with a clamp on a lower shaft, which had a bad habit of shifting slightly, and going out of time. Fortunately, it was so simple to re-time that most shops could do it while the customer waited. Sears realized that this was happening and the machines were not coming back to them for being serviced by sending them in to their central service stations, so they redesigned the "timing clamp." No they did not make it less likely to go out of time. They built up the metal so that the bolt in the clamp was down in a recess, and had a special bolt installed that had a five sided head. Of course, Sears was the only one that had the tool that could fit on this bolt, and it was not available to anyone outside the organization. I cite these examples, because this is the type of thinking that pervades thru these organizations, and is one of the reasons that they can get away with selling you an insurance policy that you should never need. Bill Holman |
User: wghmch
Member since: 03-04-2003 Total posts: 249 |
From: Patty22
Date: 08-26-2006, 06:49 PM (5 of 15)
Bill, you said: "Sears has been famous over the years for requiring minor modifications in their models, which although they really don't deminish the quality, force the owner to come back to them for service/parts." I can only speak about my Bernina, but it always upset me when they changed the feet over the years. My 1230 feet could fit the 930 and 801 Sport, but not vice versa. Then with the newer models the prongs were changed again so that they don't fit the older models. I just don't think that modifying game is limited to Sears, but is just typical of most manufacturers to force the consumers to buy with each model. The extra feet are not chump change either. I had to replace my walking foot and that was $120 from my dealer (which won't fit on the newer models). I also know that if I go to a newer model I am going to have to figure out how to get the freearm to fit into my cabinet. (I will probably have to find someone to cut me a new insert as the free arm is now larger.) Kind of off topic a bit, but really proves your point about modifications......I knew someone who did interior work for a living (this was before you could take your paint chips to the store [or fabric swatches] and have the computer calculate your color.) He would often take the paint and mix in color of his own just so the homeowner could never get an exact match. This would force the homeowner to hire him again if they wanted the color just right. I felt it was pugnant behavior; we are no longer friends. Patty
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User: Patty22
Member since: 03-29-2006 Total posts: 1194 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 08-26-2006, 07:06 PM (6 of 15)
About Sears making modifications..I have found some of these modifications were also things like an added feature that the Whirlpool major appliance did not have but the Kenmore appliance made by Whirlpool did have. The same with the Kenmore sewing machines. You might have an added little feature on the Janome made Kenmore that the machine with the Janome name on it might not have. I have owned several Janome machines and Kenmore and find them of the same quality with no complaints. My computerized Kenmore is one of the best machines I have ever used and I used to sell machines of other brands. My Kenmore major appliances have been outstanding also. Lately though there seems to be a lack of quality among many major known brands in many types of appliances. Kitchenaid no longer has the quality of the Hobart mixer either. Singer's holding company now owns Pfaff/Viking, is that right Bill? There were not supposed to be changes with their take over but more of the machines seem to be coming out of China now and are plast..icky. I wonder if there will be more changes since Kmart now owns Sears. I have seen Kenmore products in my local Super K but so far no Kenmore sewing machines are on the local KMart shelves. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: Tom Land
Date: 08-26-2006, 11:02 PM (7 of 15)
Melinda, I quit carrying Janome about 10 years ago so am not totally aware of the Janome- Department store situation. I do know that Janome makes machines for speciifc markets and stores like a lot of the SM companies. For example machines made for Hancock fabrics will have an HF in front of the model number and are available no where else. I service the machines for Hancocks and I can tell you that they are not "Janome" quality. Most companies that make machines for stores other than their dealers do make a lesser quality machine for those stores. How much lesser quality ranges from a little to a lot. In some cases the difference is just a feature or two but they are not the same machines. When comparing check the model number. If the number is identical then so is the machine. Be carefull that the number doesn't have different letters before or after it. I don't think the dealer was trying to mislead you. As far as supporting the machine I don't know what Janomes policy is now but at one time you could not send the machine to them yourself. It had to be taken to a dealer who could send it in if need be. In that case if you have no dealer you have no support. As Bill pointed out the market has changed so Janomes proceedures on this may have changed too. I remember when Singer started making machines to be sold at Sams and a few other discount markets. When we (the company owned stores) complaimed that these machines would hurt the Singer name we were told that "people should know they get what they pay for". Well, it did hurt the companies name and people still think they can get something for nothing as long as it has a well known name. All of this long winded post is just to say shop carefully. Turnip greens and Rudabaga(sp?) greens look like the same thing but it only takes a taste to find out how different they are. I don't know the dealer you dealt with and she may be a decietfull old bat but I think it is more likely that she is trying to steer you right. Bear in mind that if a department store machine has a problem while still under warranty shipping to and from the company will ussually cost between $50 and $100. That adds to the price you actually paid for the machine. Have fun or don't do it, Tom
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User: Tom Land
Member since: 09-21-2005 Total posts: 514 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 08-27-2006, 03:08 AM (8 of 15)
Every brand of sewing machine has it's top of the line and it's lower end models. They have features and prices that vary. Janome (once called New Home) makes so many machines for other companies. They make the Kenmores, some Elna models and the previous HuskyStar models for Viking. I don't know if they make the brand new model HuskyStars because somebody said they are now made in China where the older ones came from Taiwan. Bernina has Janome products and Janome also makes the Pfaff Grand Quilter and the Viking Mega Quilter which is the identical machine with different outward cosmetics and both made in Taiwan. I cannot imagine Janome making a lesser quality machine for these companies otherwise I don't think the companies would continue to use them with their company name on them. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: wghmch
Date: 08-27-2006, 11:46 AM (9 of 15)
"Janome (once called New Home) makes so many machines for other companies...some Elna models.." Not only that, as of this month, they became the parent company of Elna International, and will completely control Elna in the US. Bill Holman |
User: wghmch
Member since: 03-04-2003 Total posts: 249 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 08-27-2006, 03:25 PM (10 of 15)
Wow Bill..so that is the reason that Elna is no longer distributed by Tacony. I had been wondering why..thanks so much for the info. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: paroper
Date: 08-27-2006, 04:37 PM (11 of 15)
On a little different note, I don't know why the feet for the 1230 does not fit the older Bernina models but I do know why they redesigned the new feet (not that I'm thrilled because I have a fortune in the mid-feet). The new Bernina feet were changed to accomidate the needle threader.
pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: Patty22
Date: 08-27-2006, 07:22 PM (12 of 15)
Hi Pam....my feet for the 1230 do fit my older machines, but not the other way around. I have lots of feet that I had gotten for my 930 and 801 (for pin tucking, etc, as I did lots of heirloom sewing when my daughter was little) and unfortunately they won't fit any of the newer models because the shank was changed. I was told the free arm was also modified because of the newer features. I'm saving for a new machine, so I listen with great intent about what everyone is saying about their different machines and the features they enjoy. My husband has been listening to me as I've been reading the posts about where to buy a machine and he just told me not to worry that I could go to a dealer Patty
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User: Patty22
Member since: 03-29-2006 Total posts: 1194 |
From: mzorn
Date: 08-27-2006, 09:38 PM (13 of 15)
I've been reading everyone's thoughts and even tried to search past posts for info. I think I might try the Janome Harmony. I figure I can't be more disappointed than I was with the others I tried and this way I get to use the machine while I'm paying for it, instead of it sitting in layaway somewhere for several months. If the dealer would offer their own in-store card, I would consider shopping there. I tried the new Brother 6000 it was a nightmare, I tried a new White and it was an even bigger disappointment than the Brother. Both had tension problems, the Brother started having stitch problems like it was trying to do a mix of 2 separate stitch options instead of the one selected, the White was too expensive for a lack of some of the simpler features even the less expensive models had. I have to say customer service at JoAnns from the time of purchase and through the return process was and still is a nightmare as I am still trying to get my refund. Of course they already have the machine and have had for over 2 weeks. I'm tired of having to return machines because they don't function properly or they just don't meet my expectations. All I want is a user friendly, reliable, and long lasting machine that I can count on. Especially since I'm starting my own part time quilting business I can't be without a machine for weeks on end. It has to be able to go and go for hours on end, especially on my 3 day weekends. Those are stock up days. Any how, I really appreciate all your suggestions, ideas and knowledge. Maybe one day I can afford a machine from a dealer. If my requests for quilting continue to climb hopefully it will be in the near future. Thank you all very much and I'm sure if I have issues with the Janome I'll be back. I hope it will be with good news. Melinda |
User: mzorn
Member since: 04-14-2002 Total posts: 22 |
From: paroper
Date: 08-27-2006, 09:43 PM (14 of 15)
Yeah, but the 1230's don't fit the 200! I have a ton of 1530 feet that I have had to reinvest in for the 200 (sob). I am 100% sold on buying from a dealer. You can test drive the machines. The dealer should take it OUT OF THE BOX and adjust it before it ever leaves the shop the first time. He should also sit down and show you basic skills like threading before you leave. He should take care of any maintanence (my dealer cleaned my machine for free for two full years after it was purchased). It is a really good idea to find one that either has a service tech in house or one that he uses exclusively (sometimes they are in another branch of their store). He should KNOW HIS MACHINE and freely answer any questions...be learly of those who slam other makes of machines....if his machine is good he shouldn't have to slam ALL other brands...almost all machines have some good points. Many mfgs insist that their dealers offer classes on basic machine usage. With the Bernina Artista machines, depending upon the machine...this can be six classes of machine, two of software (if you purchase), one for the Magic Box (if you purchase), and one just general class on using embroidery stabilier, two I think of the six Artista classes are just for the sewing side. Each of these classes may run from 2-3 hours. Many dealers also have clubs that meet on a regular basis to promote their new products but also show you special uses for your machine...and it is nice to meet other seamstresses...many dealers have quilt or embroidery clubs too. In addition, many dealers will allow you up to full value on your machine if traded within a given time, usually up to a year. Also, come prepared to spend a little more at the time of purchase, many dealers will give as much as a 20-25% discount on day of purchase. You may want to ask the dealer you are considering about this and take a little time to plan your purchases carefully. With my first purchase I got my cutting table, sewing table, a Bernina Pro Iron ($129 in 1992), multiple feet, good sewing and trim scissors, some misc things like a Simplex, desk organizer, cutting mat, t-sqare, needles, etc...using my 25 per cent discount. I was setting up a business and wanted to stretch my dollar where I could. pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: SandyGirl
Date: 08-28-2006, 08:47 AM (15 of 15)
By purchasing from the "big boxes" for their "honesty" over independent dealers, you are assuring that the small guys will eventually go away for good. While it may seem that they (dealers) are dishonest in not telling you everything about the sewing machine industry...if your dealer had mentioned his "compensation" or lack there of...when working on machines he sold,etc. you would have been put off. Kind of like the cellular phone industry, we all like to be compensated for what WE sell and work on. Hmmm, is that so bad. so go ahead and "punish" the small guy for wanting to make a living. Yes, I believe that we all get what we pay for and remember, when the big retailers offer a brand name and lower prices than a dealer..whatever industry, you have to believe that the retailer also drove what features and quality eventually went into the machine in order to get the price down. We all get what we are willing to pay for and something will be left off to do so. My dealer shows his appreciation for my purchasing the Janome 9700 from him by always offering me a 10% discount on accessories, etc purchased from him. He has been in business for 20 plus years. PS: I purchased a small Janome from Hancock fabrics/$89 for class time but now wish I had popped a couple of hundred more for a smaller computerized one from my dealer..... |
User: SandyGirl
Member since: 09-16-2005 Total posts: 97 |
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