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From: lendube
Date: 06-11-2007, 07:15 PM (1 of 24)
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I'm sure I'm singing an old song here but ~~~ Do you find that you actually need a smaller (or larger) size than what the pattern suggests according to your measurements? Does it differ greatly from company to company? What if you fall in between the cracks? Let's say a 16 on the bottom and a 14 on the top and the multi-size pattern splits right there? Do you buy two patterns? Ouch! With Simplicity at least I'm a 16/18 according to their pattern backs. If I make a straightforward 16 it's miles too big. What's up with that? I hate cutting a 12 or 14 and risk it being too small. I'm a 10/12 in ready to wear and that's pretty consistant. Just a bit frustrated.  Lennie |
User: lendube
Member since: 08-06-2006 Total posts: 1548 |
From: material_pakrat
Date: 06-11-2007, 07:55 PM (2 of 24)
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I had to buy a Sz 22 Simplicity top pattern, which at first really annoyed me, coz I can go and buy a commercial 18. But then I knew it wasn't me when I had to use a for my girlfreind who I KNOW isn't big. I have given up on wondering what size to buy, and now carry my measurements around with me. Then I just try and fudge what size pattern I need. Which of course then depends on the style, as well as the pattern manufacturer. But then I always have the problem of all of these patterns not really being made for plus sizes. They are just an upsized version of the smaller sizes, and you end up with giraffe sized arms/legs or necklines that would gape on an elephant. I have come to the conclusion that patterns are just a starting template for me to create with. Lucky there are lots of hints on this site to help me alter patterns.  I think it is just a never-ending battle that we have to get used to Lennie.
Cheers, Soph.
I'm happiest when I am sewing! |
User: material_pakrat
Member since: 12-13-2006 Total posts: 220 |
From: Mom of Six
Date: 06-11-2007, 09:48 PM (3 of 24)
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I measured my DD who is 15 & wears a size 10. The pattern size for her is a 16 or 18 which turn out way to big so I started using a 10 or 12 pattern & just adjusting the waist measurement. The last 2 have fit pretty good.
Barb
Happiness is having time to sew!! |
User: Mom of Six
Member since: 11-03-2001 Total posts: 1115 
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From: EmaCon
Date: 06-12-2007, 05:50 AM (4 of 24)
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You may be singing an old song but I think it's time to start demanding changes from pattern companies. This issue is endlessly frustrating for many home sewists and needs to be addressed. Another issue, as you said Soph, is that everything else gets increased along with the bust when you try to accomodate it and use the size suggested by the pattern company. Until the revolution, I suggest you might 1. take a pattern drafting course and make a pattern that actually fits you so you can compare it to the commercial ones and make the changes you need in an informed way (rather than hit or miss). You should also learn how to manuipulate that pattern to get different styles. You might be able to get this information from a book but I don't know what to recommend. Maybe someone else does. 2. find a professional pattern maker who can make a basic pattern for you. Again, I don't know if this service exists and if it doesn't it should. I took a pattern drafting course about 15 yrs ago and it completely changed the way I see and read patterns and RTW clothes. I not only made something that fit me, I learned to manipulate the basic pattern to create different styles just like the pattern company does when it shows you different views of the same pattern. If these courses aren't readily available we should be demanding that they be. I read somewhere (sorry I can't give credit where credit is due) that we're taking a 2 dimensional material (fabric) and turning it into a 3 dimensional finished product (clothing). The pattern is the blueprint. A good blueprint will result in a good building. A good pattern will result in a good garment. |
User: EmaCon
Member since: 07-28-2006 Total posts: 67 |
From: lendube
Date: 06-12-2007, 12:56 PM (5 of 24)
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Great stuff, EmaCon. Back in the dark ages (the '70's) when I was in college we had those wonderful classes for pattern drafting. I still have one book for sure. Maybe it's time to drag it out and check it out. Some things don't change. Try finding a sewing class that isn't geared towards a fashion career..........good luck. They just don't exist anymore. All the classes I've found are tied into a two year program at least. Lennie |
User: lendube
Member since: 08-06-2006 Total posts: 1548 |
From: EmaCon
Date: 06-13-2007, 05:52 AM (6 of 24)
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Yes. Do get out your old book and make a new basic. Then when you compare it to a commercial pattern you'll see which size is best in order to make the fewest alterations. You asked earlier if different pattern comanies use different sizes and the answer is yes. Nancy Zeiman says in her fitting book that the big 4 American companies have much more ease than the European ones and suggests you use the upper bust circumference for these in order to get a better fit in the shoulders and armholes (i.e. if your bust is 38 and your upper bust is 36, choose the pattern with the 36 bust and make the necessary bust adjustments). The European ones (like Burda) have a much closer fit and you should choose those according to your bust measurement. Once you get the hard part of fitting under control, you can spent more time at the fun part of sewing. If you find the book helpful and you are successful, maybe you can share the title with everyone else (if the book is still available). |
User: EmaCon
Member since: 07-28-2006 Total posts: 67 |
From: paroper
Date: 06-13-2007, 09:28 AM (7 of 24)
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The KEY to fitting a pattern is in the pattern description given. Now, bearing in mind that the neck and shoulders of the pattern should ALWAYS be sized correctly, everything can go south below that point according to the pattern directions. The problem is that most of us are used to our clothes fitting more or less tightly. If we get 2 inches of ease in purchased clothing, we go down a size and brag that we bought a size 5 instead of a size 7...must have lost weight...that is not something that happens readily in clothing patterns..they are actually made to size...so...here is a chart to explain http://www.voguepatterns.com/indextec.htm Now, if the pattern says Loosly fitted, we don't generally think that 12 inches in the bustline is "comfort"...see what I mean? You REALLY have to pay attention! Also, regardless of what the pattern says on the BACK, the picture on the front may show something entirely different...after ranting for about 30 min at Simplicity over a garment that showed to be fitted on the cover but actually had 8 inches of WAISTLINE ease, I was told they often PIN THE GARMENTS TIGHTER on the models to achieve a particular fit!!!!! I was livid...I made 27 of those dresses!!!!!!!!! Vary greatly? Simplicity mnost ease, McCalls next. Butterick is a lovely pattern to use for "blossoming youthful figures". It has less fullness in the bust and less curves in the hips. I like Vogue for the young career woman. As a rule, Vogue and Butterick fit closer and have less ease. However, I have purchased a few Butterick patterns that have errored on the "wider" side. Buying patterns to size? Well, first look at the all the information on the back. Many patterns now give finished size of the bust or hips which is VERY helpful. They should also give a written description of the garment. I ALWAYS buy for the bust and shoulders. If you are endowed, buy for the shoulders, make full bust alterations. The hips and waist are easy to change. If you have a multi sized pattern you can easily just go from one size to the next. If you do not, it is not that hard to do the math...need 2 inches in the hips, divide by 4, that is 1/2 inch added to each seamline at the sides (easy). The trick is to add the amount smoothly so you don't get a "pocket" of fabric on the side (which can be altered out with the first fitting). pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: lendube
Date: 06-13-2007, 12:28 PM (8 of 24)
Pam, that's very helpful information. I'll try using those hints instead of just reading about them.  Emacon, I dug out the old book. It's actually still available. It was printed in 1974 and I bought it in 1977. The author is Jack Handford ~ his credits are very impressive. Costume Design Chouinard Art Institute Instructor Prof. Pattern Interpretation, Prof. Designation Program University Extension - UCLA Former Owner/Director of the California Fashion Institute It's called, "Professional Patternmaking for Designers of Women's Wear". It's still available through Amazon along with several other pattern making books he wrote. This one is huge, over 400 (8"x11") pages in a binder style book. It's now available with used ones starting at $33.00 and I bought it for $12.50 (which was expensive back then for a student particularly!) Thanks for making me remember that book and making me dig it out. I'd actually forgotten I still had it. Lennie |
User: lendube
Member since: 08-06-2006 Total posts: 1548 |
From: Magot
Date: 06-13-2007, 02:31 PM (9 of 24)
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How much of our frustration is due to "vanity sizing" being moved such that an item that I would measure as a 14 is lovingly labeled a 12 or 10...thereby we are heartbroken when we read the measurement s on the back of a pattern. Just get the thing that fits and sod the size! love and kisses, Jan
Guts-R-Us Cells a Speciality DNA to order. |
User: Magot
Member since: 12-22-2002 Total posts: 3626 
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From: paroper
Date: 06-13-2007, 02:50 PM (10 of 24)
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Back in the 60's when New Sizing came out, all sizing, ready to wear and patterns were the same. Too bad that RTW didn't stick to the rules OR that the patterns didn't follow the RTW sizing...I guess though, if patterns had followed we'd really be confused!
pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: EmaCon
Date: 06-13-2007, 04:29 PM (11 of 24)
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Thanks Lennie, The book is recommended by Kathleen Fasanella who is a profession pattern maker for the clothing industry. You're lucky to have a copy. She wrote in her blog that if the draft comes out skin tight, grade it up one size and it should give you a nice fit. Good luck and keep us posted. |
User: EmaCon
Member since: 07-28-2006 Total posts: 67 |
From: Shellymoon
Date: 06-13-2007, 10:24 PM (12 of 24)
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I'm about done with the standard Big 3 patterns. I will buy the Sandra Betzinas and some of the Khalia Ali patterns, but the majority of them don't fit right and I don't want to spend more time fitting than I do sewing....However, I have discovered that Kwik Sew patterns and most Burda patterns have the fit just about right. Guess whose patterns I buy now? They're harder to find and a little more expensive, but oh so worth it. I'd rather have one Kwik Sew than 50 McCalls patterns anyday. Shelly Moon
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User: Shellymoon
Member since: 05-27-2001 Total posts: 240 |
From: smessier
Date: 06-13-2007, 10:34 PM (13 of 24)
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What a great thread this is. Lot's of helpful and interesting information. Thanks to all of you. Sandy |
User: smessier
Member since: 09-03-2004 Total posts: 114 |
From: plrlegal
Date: 06-14-2007, 12:14 AM (14 of 24)
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There are two books that have been a very valuable addition to my sewing room that I keep out where they are handy all the time. They are: Fantastic Fit for Every Body by Gale Grigg Hazen and Fit for Real People by Patti Palmer and Marta Alto. These two books cover just about every pattern fitting and pattern altering question any of us could have. Also, I have a set of my measurements (not that I'm happy with them but they are truly mine, albeit painful to look at them) that I keep up on one of my bulletin boards where I can seen them when I'm altering and pinning a pattern for cutting. I also think it is important to have a close friend, a relative or someone that you feel comfortable with help you get a good set of your true measurements. I've found that it is very hard to measure yourself and get good accurate measurements. Patsy Patsy
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User: plrlegal
Member since: 05-19-2001 Total posts: 318 |
From: PaulineG
Date: 06-14-2007, 01:02 AM (15 of 24)
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I'm also very fond of the Kwik Sew patterns. I haven't yet had a dud in them - which can't be said for the others. As I get better at sewing I'm learning to work out the problems but I'd still rather not have to. I have patterns that I'm putting off using because I just know they'll be a pain. The only other way I manage to easily get a nice fit is to trace off existing clothing or draw up my own pattern. Pauline
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User: PaulineG
Member since: 09-08-2006 Total posts: 901 |
From: EmaCon
Date: 06-14-2007, 04:43 AM (16 of 24)
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So it's high time we realized that it's not just our sewing abilities (or lack of them) but many of the faults lie with the pattern companies: 1.the cut of the patterns - if I buy something in ready to wear that fits snugly and that's what I consider a good fit to be, why should the sewing industry put in gobs of ease and expect me to think that it fits properly? 2. the techniques they recommend.(keep reading) So here's something I've wanted to get off my chest for a long time. I've always felt that home sewing is a poor cross of couture sewing and industry sewing and I've had a love/hate affair with it because I love to sew but I find many of the techniques recommended in patterns or books so frustrating. Slip stitch a facing or a waistband? I've never bought an item of clothing with a slip-stitched facing or waistband. Never. Iron seams open? Ditto. I've never bought an item of clothing where any of the seams are left open. I think that if we want to encourage a new generation of sewists (I don't write "sewers" because it could be pronounced another way) it's time to move with the times and update the way we sew. We also have to be very honest with them and not perpetuate the some of the nonsense we grew up with. If we teach them how to first fit garments properly (and I don't think that only bust, waist and hip measurements are enough), then they'll be able to deal with pattern anomalies and we can get rid of 5/8" seam allowances. 1/4" and 3/8" seam allowances are easier to sew and easier to finish. You don't have to grade them or snip them or iron them open. As soon as you cut into fabric, you weaken it's stability. Patterns need to be drawn and then cut carefully, and the cut pieces handled as little as possible until sewn together. Pieces that are sewn together should fit together before they are sewn. They should be engineered that way from the beginning. And all sewing machines should have dual feed to prevent the top piece from coming out shorter than the bottom (or vice versa - I can't remember) at the end of sewing. It took me years to figure out why that was happening to me all the time. I'm glad that some of you are being more selective in your pattern company choices. Companies can only sell what people are willing to buy. If we don't buy it, it won't be for sale anymore. |
User: EmaCon
Member since: 07-28-2006 Total posts: 67 |
From: paroper
Date: 06-14-2007, 09:11 AM (17 of 24)
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It is very hard to get an accurate measurment, esp. in the bust area. We use the muscles that support the bust when we lift our arms to take those measurments. It doesn't matter so much in some cases, but if you happen to be a bit endowed in those areas, it can make dramatic changes in the size of the bust. Also, to take a proper measurment you must be able to stand perfectly errect and relaxed. Bending to take measurments takes away from this. A partner for proper measurments is almost indispensible. Some day we'll probably be able to get totally accurate measurment with a laser, but until then......
pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: blackie
Date: 06-14-2007, 08:06 PM (18 of 24)
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Try finding a sewing class that isn't geared towards a fashion career..........good luck. They just don't exist anymore. All the classes I've found are tied into a two year program at least. Lennie, at least there are classes in your area. None in mine and sometimes I feel so desperate I'd take any class whatsoever. The KEY to fitting a pattern is in the pattern description given... I ALWAYS buy for the bust and shoulders. If you are endowed, buy for the shoulders, make full bust alterations. Thank you for your tips and the link. Although the amount of information is slightly overwhelming for me! You are really wonderful to share your knowledge with us all. I also think it is important to have a close friend, a relative or someone that you feel comfortable with help you get a good set of your true measurements. I've found that it is very hard to measure yourself and get good accurate measurements. A partner for proper measurments is almost indispensible. My husband bought me FFRP today. And he's going to be thrilled I need him to take my bust measurement tonight. I've enjoyed reading here and am slowly starting to feel I don't have a freakishly deformed body and therefore THAT is why I have had so many fit issues! see the mundane life of a housewife.
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User: blackie
Member since: 03-31-2004 Total posts: 594 |
From: lendube
Date: 06-14-2007, 08:13 PM (19 of 24)
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We are all freakishly deformed in one way or another, Blackie. Don't despair............. There is no normal and just when you get used to your body, it changes........ Lennie 
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User: lendube
Member since: 08-06-2006 Total posts: 1548 |
From: paroper
Date: 06-14-2007, 08:46 PM (20 of 24)
Husbands make great measuring partners! You can turn that into quite an evening! In the long run it'll pay off in his support for...new machines? Fabrics...PATTERNS...after all, you really need to be measured for each outfit....
pam
Bernina 200e, Artista V5 Designer Plus, Explorations, Magic Box, Bernina 2000DE & 335 Bernette Serger, Bernina 1530 Sewing Machine, Bernina 1300 DC Overlock (with coverstitch) |
User: paroper
Member since: 02-03-2004 Total posts: 3775 |
From: material_pakrat
Date: 06-14-2007, 08:56 PM (21 of 24)
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Hubby finds it much less frustrating to help me fit for sewing than going shopping for RTW clothes with me. He is also enjoying material shopping now, and is making me buy more material than I would have if i had gone on my own. Another upside is to be able to watch the sport on tv while he helps. Hubby watched the V8 Supercars while he taped me up for my body double last weekend. Very ugly sight by the way. He is still wondering whether he has been replaced since I bought my dressform IMA (I'm a fatso!), coz now he doesn't have to help with my hems! Cheers, Soph.
I'm happiest when I am sewing! |
User: material_pakrat
Member since: 12-13-2006 Total posts: 220 |
From: bridesmom
Date: 06-14-2007, 11:52 PM (22 of 24)
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I'm sticking my 12 cents in here, as I have just finished cutting out a shwack of different items for myself, and holding my breath, as I am sure they are all going to be too big. I guess it is easier to make them smaller, than to have it cut out too small to begin with which I did for a while. I do like the fact that the pattern companies are including the finished sizes at bust and hip on their patterns, but all in all I find that I measure out at a 16, but end up making a 14, with an adjustment at the hip to 16. I don't have a favorite pattern company, though I do like the Vogue details better than the other companies. Usually I have an idea in my little pea brain of what I want to make, then I have to find a pattern that is similar. I've been really unhappy with my last few Kwik Sew patterns, finding the neckline huge and gaping, so I will have to retry with more adjustments. My best lesson for myself is to continually try on, baste, try on, before making the permanent seams, topstitching etc. It's a pain, but I end up a lot happier at the end when I don't have to rip it out two or three times.
Laura
Tickled pink with my Innovis 4000D |
User: bridesmom
Member since: 01-21-2004 Total posts: 2026 |
From: PaulineG
Date: 06-15-2007, 09:04 AM (23 of 24)
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He is also enjoying material shopping now, and is making me buy more material than I would have if i had gone on my own. Sounds like a keeper. This is the same one who encouraged you to buy the MC 9500 isn't it? Give his mum a big thank you when you see her next. Pauline
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User: PaulineG
Member since: 09-08-2006 Total posts: 901 |
From: plrlegal
Date: 06-15-2007, 11:37 PM (24 of 24)
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Bridesmom like you, I never cut and sit down and sew up a garment without pinning, fitting, basting, fitting, etc. I never do the final stitching, serginer, etc., until I'm sure the garment is the way I want it to look and fit. It does take a while but I've found out in the long run I don't end up with throw aways. Patsy Patsy
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User: plrlegal
Member since: 05-19-2001 Total posts: 318 |
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