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From: bluebirdie
Date: 03-30-2006, 07:03 PM (1 of 30)
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Hi Everyone, Sorry for the long questions. I bought my first serger yesterday!!! Okay okay I need to hold my excitment! After much research and reading, I decided to buy an used Baby Lock 402. I was so lucky to come across one for sale from a very nice lady who doesn't know how to use it and doesn't have the manual for it. The Baby just sat on her shelf for years, no box no manual. The inside was covered with a loooot of dirt/lint. But luckily, after I spent an hour cleaning and oil it, I was able to thread it up in a few minute. Thank goodness threading on this Baby is easy. Whew! Before a real project, I wanted to do test run of many kinds of fabric/threads to complete my notebook. I did sheer, cotton, knit, demi, elastic, etc. Most went well. The only problem I ran into is the right needle thread will skip on four layers of heavy demni (with knife engaged). My questions are: 1. What could be the cause? Could it be tension or presser? I adjusted both and thought they look right for my limited knowledge of serger. 2. Could it be the needle? My suspicion is that the right needle may be worn since this is a used machine. However, I couldn't find more info online as to which needle I should get for this Baby? This being my first serger, I am ignorant as to whether it takes regular machine needle or a special brand/type. If anyone has a Baby (Protege or others), please help me out here. If I don't find resolution to this, I may need to order a manual or go to a dealer (do not know one nearby). I am so excited now and want to start serging tonite, not sure if I can hold the curiosity that long. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: westozmum
Date: 03-30-2006, 08:32 PM (2 of 30)
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Hi Congratulations on your new overlocker (serger!) I would be changing your needles as skipped stitches is usually a sign of blunt/ damaged needles. Have you tried to research your new Baby on line. You can Google the make and model and see what you can come up with. with a little looking you can also find (hopefully) a manual for it. Good luck with your new Baby.......you will wonder how you ever coped with out it!! I remenber when i bought my overlocker I was soooo excited it took me 2 hours to get it out of the box just out of sheer excitment!! Mad I know  Have Fun 
Westozmum aka Laura from the Land Down Under
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User: westozmum
Member since: 02-16-2006 Total posts: 41 
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From: bluebirdie
Date: 03-30-2006, 11:26 PM (3 of 30)
Hi! Westozmum, thank you for the response. I was lucky in the sense that I did not have to overcome the serger box issue, for there was none  I think you're right. It should be the needle. I need to replace the needle. For now, I just do 3-thread with the left needle. It's been working like a charm.On the web, I found the mentioning of Singer Needles Part No. S2156 - Household Machines - Overlock needle, regular point, DCX1F, size 14 fits .... Baby Lock BL-420... I was only able to find two places selling these online and they're very expensive. Does anyone know a place where I can get these for a more affordable price? Also I have a dumb question about the size. Does a serger take different size of needle for different fabric? Or should I stay with size 14 always on the Baby Lock? - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 03-31-2006, 01:52 AM (4 of 30)
| Sew4less on line has the needles for your serger. You might want to check your local area for a sewing machine repair shop. Some of the older shops that are not brand specific usually have all kinds of goodies for different types of machines. I went to Hancocks a few years back for needles for my Babylock serger and they did not have the type I needed but there was a repair tech that was set up at the front of the store that did have the needles I needed and I purchased them from him. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: westozmum
Date: 03-31-2006, 06:05 AM (5 of 30)
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Hello, Glad to be able to help! In regard to your question about what size of needle.....while size 14 will do on most fabrics it is always a good idea to change the needle to suit the fabric as you would do on a sewing machine as they do make a huge difference to the production of the stitch. Hope that helps
Westozmum aka Laura from the Land Down Under
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User: westozmum
Member since: 02-16-2006 Total posts: 41
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From: Tom Land
Date: 03-31-2006, 10:23 AM (6 of 30)
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That used to be a very common needle. Most sewing machine dealers will stock it. Be careful not to use too large a needle. Home sergers usually recommend size 11 - 14. Never larger. Congratulations. You will soon wonder how you ever lived without a serger. As others have said... your needle is probably the cause of skipping but it could also be tensions too tight or dull knives. If none of those it is time to see your dealer.
Have fun or don't do it, Tom
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User: Tom Land
Member since: 09-21-2005 Total posts: 514 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 03-31-2006, 01:11 PM (7 of 30)
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Thank you for all the tips/help! Kylnne I went to sew4less. They have excellent website with BL402 needle selection. It's indeed much cheaper (1/4 the price). My wallet thanks you very much! I wonder why sew4less never came up on google search? Westozmum & Tom Judging from your suggestions, I should probably get size 14 and 11 just to be safe. Tom's analysis of a dull knife is a very good possibility. When I get the new needles, I will try to use the new needle first. If that does not work, I will try a new blade (need to find out how to replace one first). I did play with tension but couldn't get away with the skip. Since this only happened with right needle on four layers of thick fabric, I wonder if I pushed the limit of this serger? I am so thrilled about this machine. I have never seen a real serger working live before. All my limited knowledge before meeting this Baby was based on a book I borrowed from the library called Sewing with Sergers by Gail Brown and Pati Palmer (it was perfect for a serger dummy like me). And I was blown away when it started serging. It's such a nice machine. I have to ask it to slow down many times coz it's too fast for me. Made a handerchief for my husband last nite (rolled hem with texturized nylon). He likes it a lot and says it's nicer than store-bought. I think I'll make something nice for our friends and for the nice lady who sold me this serger. She was too busy to use it and I was lucky that she sold it to me. She also gave me a book ABC for Serging. Now that I've calmed down a bit from my excitment, I will stop chatting and start reading the book. -Robin - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 03-31-2006, 04:40 PM (8 of 30)
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Robin, I feel your excitement. Oh now you are going to have sooo much fun!! You will soon love the speed of your serger too. As for Sew4less, I have never done business with the company but I have seen them recommended by many in online posts. When I have checked the site for different accessories for machines they usually seem to always have the items. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-01-2006, 04:38 PM (9 of 30)
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kylnne I don't think I'll ever get used to the speed of this serger. I am apparantly one hand short and two eyes shy. AND it uses up threads faster than I can breath. Surprise!! I started reading ABC for serging last nite and almost kicked myself for spending an hour feeling the machine without reading it first. So much excellent information! My husband took a look and said, "Gooood. That should keep you busy for a while!". Whatever that means. I'm happy. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 04-02-2006, 05:45 AM (10 of 30)
| Robin if you are using thread up quickly could it be because you are using spools of thread instead of cones of thread in your loopers? The loopers use more thread than the needles. Some people do use spools for their needle threads but I use cones for all. I'm glad you are enjoying your serger. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-02-2006, 05:42 PM (11 of 30)
Hi Kylnne How did you know what I did....  Yup I was using regular spools and they went out within 20 minute before I even finished testing tensions on different fabrics. I paniced and quickly switched to some textured threads cones I bought before (I used them on sewing machines but didn't like the result) and redid a few seams I made prior to serger days. Before I know it, the huge cones of thread is down 1/3. Gasp! :-0 I love the look and feel of serged textured nylon. But they left so much lint behind I had to clean up the serger like every 10 minute. Considering I buy new threads for sewing machine a few times a year and only clean up my sewing machine twice a month, beauty does come with a price. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: wee2
Date: 04-03-2006, 11:08 AM (12 of 30)
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Robin, Threadline has Maxilock thread at reduced prices. Also you might try ebay and see if you can get a good deal. Maxilock seems to work well on sergers. |
User: wee2
Member since: 03-02-2006 Total posts: 3 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-03-2006, 09:53 PM (13 of 30)
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eBay here I come. Yee Ha!
- Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-07-2006, 02:03 PM (14 of 30)
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Hi Everyone, Sorry for keeping this thread on forever. I have a new discovery to share. Everywhere I looked, information indicated BL402 takes DCx1F needles. My order for new needles finally arrived (Schmetz DCx1F coz I heard they're good). I put them on and the serger will not form any loops. I looked at the internal operations of moving parts and guessed the needles may be too short to catch the threads to form loops. Under close examination, I found out the needles that came with this used BL402 were Organ HA type needles (was on the serger when I bought it). I then put on some new HA needles and watched them serge away fine. The needles are not touching anything they should not, and are catching what they should. Same tension, same threads, same fabrics, the wrong needles work! Any ideas? - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: wghmch
Date: 04-07-2006, 04:00 PM (15 of 30)
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Robin, I don't recall which needles your Babylock takes, but they are all distributed by Tacony who is noted for good customer service, so you could ask someone there thru: http://www.tacony.com/contact-us/ I am trying to recall if the other needle was a round shank. If it was, and it was changed to one with a flat shank, there would be a spacing issue between the needles and the loopers as well as a timing issue. Bill Holman |
User: wghmch
Member since: 03-04-2003 Total posts: 249 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-07-2006, 05:28 PM (16 of 30)
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Hi Bill The original needles on the machine were flat shank Organ (which was working fine with only a few skips under special condition). The new ones I purchased per some dealer sites directions were also flat shank. However, the Schmetz DCx1F needles are shorter than Organ HA and Singer. Thanks for the link. I sent an email to both Baby Lock and Tacony. Will keep you posted on their response. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-07-2006, 07:26 PM (17 of 30)
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I got words back from Baby Lock regarding the needles. Here's an abstraction: "The needle you should be using with your BL402 is the M705HF type needle. Do not use needles other than the recommended needle with your machine." What does M705HF mean? Although the flat shank needle came with the serger seems to work fine, it's wrong according to Baby Lock. Also according to Baby Lock, about 100% of the dealers I checked with adviced wrong type of needle for this serger. I am a bit discouraged about Baby Lock now. But I know this wouldn't have been a problem if I purchased it new from a dealer. Baby Lock also gave me a local contact which is kind of within driving distance for me. Time to pay them a visit. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: wghmch
Date: 04-07-2006, 08:14 PM (18 of 30)
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"What does M705HF mean?" The 705 system is the European # that is equivalent to the US 15X1 & the Japanese HA needles. (Length and shape of shank) The letters with it designate a specific configuration which is probably mostly the shape of the scarf. Therefore, your HA needles were pretty close but not exact. Don't get discouraged about your Babylock, as they and Tacony have been the most consistently dependable combination since home sergers broke onto the market. The quick response that you rcvd demonstrates a willingness to be there for their customers that you will seldom get from many of the distributors. If there is no contact between the HA needles that you have and the loopers, I would not be afraid to have them in your serger until you can get the ones they recommend, but for the best results, change as soon as you can. Bill Holman |
User: wghmch
Member since: 03-04-2003 Total posts: 249 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-07-2006, 09:46 PM (19 of 30)
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Thanks Bill for sharing your knowledge and encouragement. As your suggested, I double checked the needle/finger operations (with all threads removed and under magnifying glass). The HA needles are not touching the loopers although the right needle comes really close. Also got a hold of a someone from our local dealership and was informed that they suggest their Baby Lock Protege owners to use just regular HA needles. So I will use these new HA needles for now while continuing my search for the proper type. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 04-08-2006, 04:56 PM (20 of 30)
| Robin, I had an older Babylock model that took a different type of needle that the sergers I have had since take. I had a Pfaff that took different needles then a Janome model that took the household needles that were different and easier to find. There is a basic 4 thread Babylock model 450 that looks exactly like the Simplicity 390 serger. Both of these sergers are distributed by Tacony. The Simplicity 390 comes with Schmetz EL 705 needles which are the same needles that my Elna 744 serger/coverhem uses. My 744 can also use the 130/705H for sepecial fabrics etc. Possibly your Babylock can use the EL 705 needles like the Simplicity that is much like the Babylock 450. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-10-2006, 01:39 PM (21 of 30)
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Hi Kylnne, Thanks for the tips. Since I have not found the M705HF type needles, I may give EL705 a try since I may have access to them. Will keep you posted.
- Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 04-11-2006, 09:03 PM (22 of 30)
| My local Joanns store sells Schmetz 705 HF needles and you could probably purchase them from Joanns on line too. This needle came with my Janome serger. There is a comparable Organ needle to this one also. My Pfaff/Viking dealer and the local Bernina dealers sell the ELx705 needles that I buy for my Elna 744. These are the recommended needles for Coverhem models and the ones that came with a Simplicity 390 model. The ELx705 needle is an industrial type needle that insures proper stitch formation at high speeds. The scarf allows the looper to come near the needle to catch the thread and form a stitch. My serger can also use the 130/705H for different threads and fabrics. If a different type of needle is recommended for your serger I suggest to go with what your manual recommends. My older Babylock only took a DCX1F and would not work with a DCX1. I never knew what the F stood for though many F words came to mind when trying just the DCX1 needles. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-12-2006, 03:25 PM (23 of 30)
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Ha Ha! I read about your F words and was laughing so hard... I almost fell off the chair! I was lucky that the DCx1F needles were way off. All it took was one needle to show needle/threads at work (or not working). So I didn't get as far as to frustrate myself on the needle itself. I did get frustrated about every dealers suggesting a different type from Baby Lock Co. and every Protege owners I've talked to are using HA needles per their dealers suggestion. Although the HAx1 needles work fine now, I would definitely try Joann later and get some 705HF needles and EL needles a try and see the difference. I can be quite persistent when attacking a problem. According to my husband, that's not always an asset
- Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-18-2006, 10:09 PM (24 of 30)
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OKAY It's been a really frustrating day today. So I decided I could use some cheering up. I sat in front my serger and notion bins and give it one more try to resolve this "right needle skipping stiches" problem. I kept the old needles that came with this serger in a zip bag with a note. It almost took my eyes out trying to read them tonite (with a magnifier). Guess what? It turned out the two needles that were on the serger were different sizes!!! One is size 14 one is size 11. Amist all the excitment that day, I must have miss that. I haven't received my new needles yet. But in my stash of notions, I found two HAx1 needles size 14. Not sure where they came from. But after I put them on, no more skipped stiches. Would two mixed sizes of needles cause skipped stiches? That's a question for the expert. It works now and I am pleased. The poor lady that owned this serger must have had a hack of a time trying to get it to work right. It probably never worked properly since she replaced the needle (I was wondering why the serger looks/feels so new after a good cleanup...). So here it is. The grand finale. For those of you out there, don't mix up your needles! - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: DorothyL
Date: 04-18-2006, 10:46 PM (25 of 30)
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Mixing the needle sizes would be an easy thing to mess up so thanks for the tip. You may have saved me a lot of anxiety. Dorothy |
User: DorothyL
Member since: 12-09-2002 Total posts: 3883 |
From: LeapFrog Libby
Date: 04-20-2006, 07:25 PM (26 of 30)
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That is exactly why the 5 needles that came with my serger are still in the little envelope they came in.. there are 2 14's and 3 11's, and I cannot read them.. So, I just always buy new ones to put in when I need them.. I cannot understand why Organ would make the package like that.. I have never been able to read the size on a machine needle.. A magnifying glass does not help..
Sew With Love
Libby |
User: LeapFrog Libby
Member since: 05-01-2002 Total posts: 2022 
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From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-20-2006, 10:17 PM (27 of 30)
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So is that what they did... The same thing must have happened to this serger I bought. They probably did it out of good will thinking one may need the chance to try different sizes. But mixed sizes of needles in one envelope! When I get the chance, I may write to Baby Lock about this and recommend them to include unified size of needles with their sergers in the future. Are there anyone out there who has new Baby Locks and do they still come with mixed size of subsitute needles in one envelope? While we're at it, if ANYONE of you recently purchased a new serger that came with a mixed size needle envelope, please say Ye. Inform the maker or dealer of this problem. Let's save some future serging buddies unnecessary challenges (or sore eyes) down the road. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Tom Land
Date: 04-21-2006, 08:33 PM (28 of 30)
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The "F" in DCx1F stands for "flat". The DCx1 has a round shank while the DCx1F has a flat side. The El 705 is a modified 130/705 with the scarf cut to better accomodate loopers rather that a hook. It will work well on any serger calling for an HAx1, el705, or 2054. Sergers that call for these needles will work with a standard 130/705 but might have problems on some fabrics. Most coverhem sergers require the el705 when doing the coverhem or you get skipping. I personally always recommend using the EL705 because it is the best needle. Life is too short for avoidable frustraions. I will not use needles that might cause problems or thread that might tend to break if I can avoid it. Sewing is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. Have fun or don't do it, Tom
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User: Tom Land
Member since: 09-21-2005 Total posts: 514 |
From: bluebirdie
Date: 04-22-2006, 12:44 PM (29 of 30)
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Oh that's very good to know. Last time I went to JoAnn's, they had no EL nor 705HF. I must get some EL next time to try out. - Robin
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User: bluebirdie
Member since: 03-12-2006 Total posts: 139 |
From: Kylnne2
Date: 04-22-2006, 03:46 PM (30 of 30)
| Yep, the Schmetz ELx705 needles are what I use in both of my presently owned sergers, and I have never had a problem or a skipped stitched in Coverhem or regular overcast. |
User: Kylnne2
Member since: 07-10-2004 Total posts: 629 |
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